| 13:47 |
The Times:
Hello Everyone. Martin Birchall from High Fliers Research will be here at 2pm ready to debate the graduate jobs market. His research today shows that there are more vacancies and more money for university leavers but more competition for jobs. We’d love to hear your views. |
| 13:56 |
Comment From Mike
Martin’s research chimes with a lot of what I’ve been hearing – that the competition for jobs is higher than in previous years. The argument used to be that students needed to undertake activity away from the classroom to stand out from the competitive crowd. Do you believe this is still true? |
| 14:07 |
Carol Lewis:
H i Mike, I think you’re right. Employers have told me that they want to see relevant work experience. |
| 14.09 |
Comment From Guest
Further to Mike’s comment, how does one stand out from the competitive crowd- as most students do participate in a multitude of activities outside of the classroom? |
| 14.10 |
Carol Lewis:
Lots of companies are launching internships and school leaver programmes which are a good way of showing that you are serious about the company and the sector – also a good way of finding out whether it is the right thing for you. Lots of the schemes pay pretty well too. |
| 14:13 |
Comment From James:
Research from the Chartered Institute of Personnel Development shows that nearly two-thirds of UK businesses have found employees joining from university are lacking in business acumen and commercial awareness. Is this a worrying trend? Would developing this skill help young people stand out in the crowd? |
| 14.14 |
Carol Lewis:
Good point James and increasingly the more savvy universities are offering students courses and seminars to get them up to speed on this. Again internships and work experience can help students gain this. |
| 14.14 |
Comment From Mark
How can I make my PhD in Politics and International Studies stand out to employers? I don’t want to look too ‘academic’! |
| 14.15 |
Carol Lewis:
I’d also advocate reading the business sections of the newspapers (but I would wouldn’t I?!) but it is worrying how many graduates apply for jobs at companies which have crashed or are in difficulty. |
| 14.16 |
Martin Birchall:
Mark, the main thing is to stress to employers other things you have to offer to employers. Unless you want to work directly in politics, most employers will be less interested in your qualifications and more interested in your other achievements. |
| 14.16 |
Carol Lewis:
Hi Mark – Hopefully we will have some employers online shortly who can offer some advice on that one. I’d have thought that highlighting relevant work experience and transferable skills would be a good start. A PhD requires a high degree of motivation and drive, you need to be good at managing your workflow etc. all skills employers are looking for. |
| 14.17 |
Carol Lewis:
Hi Martin is here. Martin do you want to quickly fill us in on your research findings? |
| 14.18 |
Comment From Rachel
This is true, but it can be in the form of extra curricular activities or voluntary work not necessarily paid work. We are also having great difficulty recruiting 3 graduates currently as a small business and not one of the 100 recruiters. Graduates don’t even bother to turn up for interviews. They don’t even realise that we are located outside of London and when they find out are no longer interested. |
| 14.18 |
Comment From Tom Seccombe
Companies like ICAP have 60 vacancies for their Grad scheme yet 2,500 people apply. The application takes the best part of 2 hours to fill in, then there are telephone interviews and finally after an assessment centre then 3 more face to face interviews you may get the job. No wonder it is so hard to get on a decent Grad scheme. |
| 14.19 |
Martin Birchall:
Sorry I couldn’t make it online earlier. Our research shows that the graduate job market is recovering quickly from the recession – the top employers are hiring 18% more graduates this year than in 2009, which is great news. |
| 14.20 |
| Carol Lewis:
And is Tom’s experience at ICAP typical Martin do you think? |
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| 14.21 |
Comment From Jo Denye
I am from the National Council for Work Experience and Graduate Prospects. The value of work experience has really increased in recent years as the graduate job market has become increasingly competitive. As well as the wide range of benefits to students the employers really find that their placement students can bring a fresh perspective to their organisations. Many of them also use their placement schemes as a way to feed the talent pipeline for their graduate intakes saving them time and money on recruitment and retention. |
| 14.21 |
Carol Lewis:
Rachel – that’s awful. Martin do you know what’s being done on campuses to highlight the role of job opportunities in SMEs? |
| 14.21 |
Martin Birchall:
Sadly with applications running at an average of 45 per vacancy, it’s inevitable that selection processes have become more demanding in order to sift out the best candidates. Virtually all the major employers now have a 3 or 4 stage recruitment process. |
| 14.22 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
I don’t know the ICAP scheme, but some of my clients expect their graduate trainees to cost them £200,000 in training and support in the first two years. I can certainly understand them wanting to be thorough in ensuring that investment (60 x £200K = £12million) has a good chance of payback. |
| 14.23 |
Comment From James
Young Enterprise, the enterprise education charity, has just launched a Start-up programme with universities across the UK. This sees students working together to run their own companies with mentoring from business volunteers. Are programmes such as this useful in helping students to gain vital first-hand experience of business? |
| 14.23 |
Carol Lewis:
Tom, companies are introducing ever more complex ways of trying to find out whether students are serious about the jobs they are applying for and whether they understand the company they have applied for. This is because many students have panicked and applied randomly to as many people as they can and employers now have to sort out who will join and stay the course. |
| 14.24 |
Martin Birchall:
Rachel is not alone in struggling to recruit for the SME sector, but that’s the one area where many of the last-minute vacancies are likely to be this summer for graduates leaving university over the next few weeks. We did a survey of leading universities last July which showed that even a year ago, there were over 10,000 vacancies at SMEs for graduates. |
| 14.24 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
I think one of the challenges for graduates is to be able to show evidence of learning – having completed extra classes or done extra curricular learning from sports coaching qualifications to courses in horticulture. Increasingly skilled learners and skilled information seekers will be more valuable to employers than those who feel that they are ‘educated’ because they’ve finished university. Internships are not without risk. They do seem to work against those graduates without external financial support – hence why so many graduates flip burgers. Having said that, having completed a training programme as a barista might be a more useful way of demonstrating learning ability than hanging around an office unsure of what to do for a couple of months. |
| 14.24 |
Comment From Becky Ascough
I agree Internships are a great way for both graduates to get the experience they need, but likewise for companies to trial a grad before committing to a full time contract. We at Graduates Yorkshire run an internship programme that addresses the above issues really well and also assesses a graduates commercial awareness prior to a placement to ensure basic business skills are in place. |
| 14.24 |
Comment From Mike
Carol, you’re right internships do work as they give people real life experience alongside a learning curve … the point is that to be noticed and to be successful, students need a mix of theory with practice. |
| 14.24 |
Comment From Rachel
As an employer I don’t think these skills are so important. If the person is intelligent they will pick them up. What we need is the raw material and potential. Although obviously if they have them it’s a plus – we need to be realistic about what universities are there for. |
| 14.24 |
Carol Lewis:
Very true Robin. They need to ensure graduates are going to stay long enough to make the recruitment process worthwhile. Many of the accountancy companies find that lots of graduates leave as soon as they have their professional qualifications. That’s a big outlay for someone who is going to leave. |
| 14.25 |
Martin Birchall:
James, schemes like Young Enterprise are really important – the skills that students can gain from running their own businesses will be invaluable, whether or not they continue to run it after university. It’s invaluable experience that would impress most major employers. |
| 14.25 |
Carol Lewis:
That sounds really good Becky. |
| 14.25 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman, CMI
Following on from what James said – there are some good opportunities for young people to gain business skills, simply by getting involved in student leadership teams at school and college, and young enterprise schemes. All of which give people a hands-on experience of leading on projects and working in a team towards one goal. This stands out to employers. |
| 14.26 |
Comment From Jo Denye
Again I would recommend you undertake as much work experience as possible and draw on the experiences you have had outside your academic studies to differentiate yourself on your applications. |
| 14.26 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
Mark, I would suggest emphasising the active learning from your research. Graduate trainee schemes often expect individuals to manage their own learning – often through projects and group activities. The more the employer feels that these will both lead you to learn quickly and to deliver robust outcomes for the organisation the more likely they are to be interested in your previous studies. |
| 14.27 |
Carol Lewis:
Some good advice there Robin. I think lots of students went on to further study during the recession and will now be looking at how they can sell the skills they’ve learned in the process to employers. |
| 14.28 |
Comment From Emma
I’d like a job please! I have an excellent academic background, extensive work experience in the charity and public sectors. |
| 14.28 |
Carol Lewis:
One of the positive results of Martin’s research was that employers seem willing to pay more for graduates. Although as I understand it there is a large variation in salaries, isn’t there Martin? |
| 14.28 |
Comment From Natalie
I believe there is a real lack of careers guidance from early on in education. I remember having hardly any useful pointers about which GCSE’s I should take, to lead to which A-levels, to then which degree I could do, and finally profession. We just kind of glided through it all believing that any degree would be good and you would be ok if you went to a fairly good university… how wrong. If I knew then what I know now about the graduate market and what graduate employers are looking for, my choices would have been very different from early on at GSCE stage, and I would have been a lot more focused on particular areas. No wonder students and graduates are applying blindly to try and get any good job. School leaver schemes are also an excellent way to start your career, but I didn’t even know these things existed when I was at school and always presumed university was the only route to getting in where career wise. More information needs to be given to children at school and it should be compulsory. |
| 14.29 |
Martin Birchall:
The average salary on offer from top employers has shot up in the last six months and is now £29,000 – but if you want to work in retail, expect up to £10k and if you land a job in the City it could be up to £15k more. |
| 14.30 |
Comment From Rachel
Our experience is that many graduates apply randomly. We have had over 300 applications for the current position yet many are clearly not serious. Yet this is an interesting position with probably way higher growth prospects than many graduate programmes as we promote people really fast if they are good enough and can be flexible in this regard. Also, even though we are a small organisation we do provide in-depth training. So in short I think universities could encourage graduates to look at smaller businesses as an option. |
| 14.30 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman, CMI
Hi Mark. Yes, as Carol says a PhD certainly demonstrates that you have the ability to manage yourself. Good examples of celebrity managers who can do this are Simon Cowell and Victoria Beckham. It’s a key management strength, so you’re in good company. It means you focus on what results are needed to be successful and carry out the appropriate actions. |
| 14.30 |
Carol Lewis:
I agree Natalie – careers guidance from the start of secondary education would be a good idea. Also many good employers are now looking at employing more A-level students and giving them professional education as an alternative to degrees. University isn’t the only way into a good career. Although it can be a fun way! |
| 14.31 |
Martin Birchall:
Natalie, you’re right that careers advice is still very limited at school. Simply choosing GCSEs and A-levels based on the subjects you’re good at won’t always lead to the right choice of degree, particularly if you end up wanting to do something vocational after university. |
| 14.32 |
Carol Lewis:
You mean £10k LESS in retail and £15K MORE in investment banking don’t you Martin? Amazing how the banks have come back! |
| 14.32 |
Comment From Rachel Tobbell
It is really important that graduates in the fast moving disciplines of science, engineering and technology get jobs on graduation so that their skills and knowledge stay up to date. At the UKRC we see that female graduates in science, engineering and technology subjects are significantly less likely than their male peers to go into careers in these sectors. This represents such a waste of talent! We find that many women who have recently graduated benefit from some practical advice on career planning, interview tips, etc. and so we offer workshops and contact with role models to support them. Graduates should also be encouraged to make more use of their university careers service where they can often get some really sound advice. |
| 14.32 |
Carol Lewis:
Martin might be worth making a comment about how arts students are wanted by the accountancy and finance firms. |
| 14.32 |
| Martin Birchall:
Yes, salaries in retail are around £20-24k, in banking its £42-45k this year. |
|
| 14.33 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
One of the other skills I think those with post-graduate qualifications should emphasise is the ability to explain what they have done to lay people. One of the skill areas lacking – according to my clients – is the ability to describe complex subjects and issues simply to people who have to implement activities on a production line or in a call centre. All big organisations have a real struggle communicating to front line staff in an increasingly complex world. |
| 14.33 |
Comment From Jo Denye, NCWE/GP
Hi Emma, have you spoken to your university careers adviser? I would also recommend you take a look at Prospects.ac.uk. You can also explore a number of career options on there and take a look at the vacancies available now. |
| 14.33 |
Comment From Mike Barnard (Milkround)
A recent survey on Milkround.com found 57 percent of students had been encouraged to gain work experience or complete an internship before graduating. While it’s great that almost three in five students are getting that advice, do you feel it is emphasised enough and do you think it is advice that should be given by universities, employers and careers advisers alike? |
| 14.35 |
Martin Birchall:
Yes, one of the key things about the current graduate job market is how few employers recruit from specific disciplines any more – around 80% of vacancies are for ‘any degree’, which means accounting firms etc. are just as likely to be hiring arts students as those with a business background. Most major employers would prefer to train their graduates from scratch. |
| 14.35 |
Carol Lewis:
Yes, although there needs to be some reassurances that students are getting a good quality experience when they go and work for companies in the holidays. It should be a proper structured experience with an emphasis on what skills they can take away. |
| 14.35 |
Comment From Mike
I’m increasingly seeing people coming for job interviews and when asked what salary they expect, many talk about things other than money. I think it’s a sign of maturity – and recognition that the job market has changed – that people ask for training as part of their package. Martin, do you see much evidence of this and do you think it is a problem? Yes, people may ‘take the training and run’ but the macro-economy will surely be better off? |
| 14.36 |
Carol Lewis:
Just to clarify my last response was for Milkround Mike. |
| 14.36 |
Comment From James
Thanks Martin and Ruth – Santander agree as well having lent support to the Young Enterprise Start-up scheme. It is important that young people have the opportunity to experience real business situations and develop professional skills to help set them above the rest when they enter the job market |
| 14.36 |
Martin Birchall:
Hi Mike. There’s been a real shift in the last five years towards Careers Services targeting 1st year students to get them thinking about careers early and to start organising work experience. The message won’t sink in for everyone but it’s a big improvement on the past. |
| 14.36 |
Comment From Gerard
I would have to agree with Rachel’s post. I’ve just graduated with a 2:1 in politics and going to do a Masters in Economic Policy and Management. However, every post I see at university or through e-mails have been focussed at major corporations. I’ve been looking for smaller businesses to work for, but the advertising for them through such networks can be somewhat limited. Also, have to agree about high school advice, it was very limited- more supported for students at high school. |
| 14.37 |
Carol Lewis:
That’s great Mike and I agree a sign of maturity. Although there will always be those who are motivated purely by money. |
| 14.37 |
Comment From Tom Seccombe
Rachel and Carol, if you spend two hours filling out the forms, have a telephone interview and then visit the assessment centre then go back three times to the offices I think it is safe to say you are definitely serious about working for that company. The selection process should be reversed, after filling out a basic form you should be invited to hand over your CV in person to the offices. That would immediately show how serious you were and also eliminate a lot of the ’scattergun’ applicants you mention. |
| 14.38 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman
Following on Mike Barnard: It’s important that students are making the most of their degrees and university experiences. Some qualifications make practical work experience compulsory which is a good idea, and for the ones that don’t require this, there is no harm in young people sourcing their own placements in the holidays etc. if possible. Not only does it give people the opportunity to find out if they like particular industries and job responsibilities but could provide much-needed links after graduating. |
| 14.38 |
| Carol Lewis:
Splendid idea Tom. |
|
| 14.38 |
Comment From Nick Moules
Agree with Natalie, I was advised to do ’something I enjoy’ at A-Level and University. I later found out that History BA is not as hot for employers as I was initially told and spent several months in limbo before doing a job I didn’t really enjoy to pay the bills. Now I’m doing something I enjoy (on an internship wage) four years down the line. Case studies are useful, you can see the path to your chosen profession clearly then. |
| 14.38 |
Martin Birchall:
Mike, you asked about what graduates really want from their first job – our research suggests that whilst salary is important (partly because of increasing graduation debts) it’s the training and development that many students put first. Most want to make sure they develop the right skills as soon as they can after university. |
| 14.39 |
Comment From Jo Denye, NCWE
Hi Mike, I would say that the importance of undertaking work experience can’t be emphasised enough. Not only is it a great way for students to explore their career options but it really increases their overall employability. I think it is something that all practitioners and employers should really support and encourage. |
| 14.39 |
Carol Lewis:
Perhaps Ruth, all courses should include a work year rather like sandwich courses. |
| 14.40 |
Martin Birchall:
Good idea Tom – the current recruitment processes that employers are using are certainly at bursting point. In some sectors recruiters have dealt with 270+ applications per vacancy this year. |
| 14.40 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman
Research from my organisation, the Chartered Management Institute, reveals that job prospects are increasingly being influenced by an individual’s commitment to their long-term professional development. It’s not just about the prospective recruit looking in – it’s about employers looking outwards. Significant numbers are looking for training and development as part of their remuneration package and employers should take note of this because by offering professional development they are more likely to retain the top talent and build for the future. |
| 14.41 |
Carol Lewis:
In an ideal world doing a degree you enjoy will lead to a job you enjoy, Nick. But yes much more careers advice and access to case studies early on would probably help. But I’d hate to think that people would be dissuaded from pursuing enjoyable subjects and learning for learning’s sake. |
| 14.42 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
I agree with everyone advocating work experience, but it is important for those taking part in work experience to set some objectives – what do I want to learn, be able to show I can do etc. and then gather evidence to show a subsequent employer about what they’ve done and what they’ve learned from the experience. You want a year’s experience – not one day’s experience which is 365 days old! |
| 14.42 |
Carol Lewis:
I agree totally with that Robin. |
| 14.43 |
Comment From Gerard
One idea that I don’t think has been exploited enough is the opportunity to study abroad as part of your degree (either voluntary or as part of the course). There’s funding out there and the old fashioned method of saving really hard. I spent a voluntary year abroad in the USA and since I’ve been back, employers really perk up when they see it on the CV. |
| 14.45 |
Carol Lewis:
Martin what are graduates expectations down the line – 10 years after starting in work? Is it to earn £100K or be happy? (Perhaps the two are the same for some people!) |
| 14.45 |
Carol Lewis:
Really good point Gerard! Language skills, the ability to relocate and the drive to get up and organise a job abroad are great skills for employers. Martin what proportion of people plan to travel abroad after their degree? |
| 14.45 |
Martin Birchall:
We asked 16,000 students earlier this year what they thought they’d be doing by the age of 30 and yes money is a big motivator for some – 1 in 6 thought they would be earning £100k by then. But lots of others were focused on getting professional qualifications, post grad degrees and plenty of overseas experiences – living and working abroad, not to mention a good number of holidays! |
| 14.45 |
Comment From Robin Hoyle, infinity
Ruth is right about demands for training from new starters – both graduates and non-graduates. But employers need to deliver on the promise beyond initial training and provide ongoing personal and professional development if they are not to encourage the ‘grab the training and run’ mentality described earlier. |
| 14.45 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman
Hi Carol, yes in many cases sandwich courses are a good idea, but different courses. |
| 14.45 |
Martin Birchall:
This year 1 in 6 finalists say they’ll be taking time off or going travelling after graduation. |
| 14.46 |
Comment From James
I agree Ruth – I’ve also seen research from the CIPD where 28% of graduates claimed their degree did not equip them with the skills they need for the workforce. Universities and businesses need to work together and ensure that young people are equipped with the confidence, ability and ambition to be the driving force behind the economic recovery. |
| 14.46 |
Comment From Mike Barnard (Milkround)
Many graduates have complained that the use of 2.1 minimum requirements for graduate jobs is unfair and experience should be considered before a candidate is rejected. However, with the potential for so many applications per vacancy and the increasing use of online application forms which screen out applicants with less than a 2.1 degree, can graduates with 2.2 degrees realistically expect to benefit by gaining more work experience during their studies than those with higher degree classifications when applying for jobs? |
| 14.46 |
Comment From Ruth Spellman
Yes Carol, but different courses, in many cases, bring different values to students, including degrees, vocational qualifications and management apprenticeships. |
| 14.46 |
Comment From Mark
Thanks for your advice so far. Could you tell me how useful it is to do schemes such as Teach First, which involves 2 years in the classroom, but no guaranteed job at the end? |
| 14.47 |
Martin Birchall:
Mike B, it’s interesting that several major employers – PwC and npower, for example – have announced that they’ll be recruiting 2.2 graduates in future, rather than just focusing on 1sts and 2.1s. |
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Martin Birchall:
Mark, The Teach First scheme has been a real hit since it launched 7 years ago. And whilst there’s no guarantee of a job at the end of the two years – around half the participants remain in teaching (and are in great demand) and a large proportion of the others go on to join one of the employers that sponsor the scheme. |
| 14.19 |
Comment From Natalie
Yes Carol, university was great fun and I wouldn’t have changed it for the world! Great experience. But going back to degree types and more information being given early on, it would be good if what recruiters want is reviewed, say on an annual basis, (including which skills shortages there are each year in general in the UK), and then this information is passed down directly to schools and advisors, where they can then advise students on a compulsory basis – this would surely go a very long way in improving skills shortages in the long run and getting students/grads into the real jobs they want early on. Maybe this is something the government need to do, but it would be amazing if it could happen for future generations…. |
| 14.19 |
Carol Lewis:
Wow this debate has been great and has certainly thrown up lots of talking points. I’ve got lots of ideas for future debates we can have on recruitment. Thank you everyone for taking part. |
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